On Fri, Oct 09, 2009 at 23:51:10 +0500,
gilpel@altern.org wrote:

What's "google".

The context in the original message should give you a pretty good idea
what's being referred to.

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On Fri, Oct 09, 2009 at 14:12:32 -0400,
"Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak" wrote:

Quote:

Anyway, it is unlikely that your ISP is messing with you (has such a
case ever been reported?), but it is technically possible.

I think what you mean is that your ISP is unlikely to be SPECIFICALLY messing
with you. If you have residential cable or dsl from the local duopoly they
are quite likely to be messing with you. They may provide DNS with bogus
TTLs, send RST packets intended to break bitorrent connections, throttle
traffic based on deep packet inspection rather than say, just volume, screw
things up with hidden proxies that make unwarranted assumptions about your
traffic, returning bogus DNS records instead of NXDOMAIN, changing inflight
http responses to insert ads, tracking or helping others track what websites
you use for marketting purposes.

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Dr. Michael J. Chudobiak wrote:

changed stand out. If you are going to encrypt your mail, you really
should encrypt all your private e-mail. It makes it harder to know
what messages are worth decrypting.

Mikkel
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for thou art crunchy and taste good with Ketchup!

Alan Cox wrote:

issue, they not only didn't use random ports for DNS inqueries, they DNATed any
DNS request to teir DNS server, so I couldn't even run my own correctly patched
DNS. Now they have blocked access to mail servers other than their own, by doing
the same thing to port 25, claiming that people can use 3rd party mail services
if only the 3rd party services will convert to Verizon's mail protocol.

You can get an unfiltered connect to the Internet for only $300US more each
month, indicating that they aren't interested in blocking SPAM, just in getting
more money from spammers and anyone running their own mail.

Fortunately there is another provider available.

--
Bill Davidsen
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot

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On Fri, Oct 09, 2009 at 11:48:44PM +0500, gilpel@altern.org wrote:

Most ISPs can be trusted!

As I look at this thread history and your log I suspect but cannot fully verify that
all you are seeing is a side effect of DHCP or Thunderbird.

Some users may may be seeing two layers of DHCP.. further complicating things.
DHCP can set a long list of things from timezone to hostname lots more ending
with an IP address.

You can look at your distro documentation or the URL in your log file
"http://www.isc.org/sw/dhcp/" to see what hooks DHCP has to setup
a system. DHCP is run early and is designed to change some things as root.
You can configure the client to ignore, override etc most of them.

Another external input is the mail message that Thunderbird is replying to.
In general a graphical email tool will transparently pick up the character set
of the message you reply to. Some HTML/XML/RichText messages can have multiple
character sets in a message that includes previous messages in this and that
language/ character set. The most common reply hook is to "reply in kind". If you
send me html mail I would assume that you are OK with HTML and if you reply to
a 'text' email then a reply in the same 'text' mode is apropos.

Also mail transport agents are getting character set aware. In a global world
host names and user names used for email delivery are no longer restricted to
the classic 7bit ASCII character set. Depending on the email message
structure you may see interesting things in Mail headers or MIME attachment headers.

I said "Most ISPs can be trusted!" while true is still subject to the
normal problems of individuals exceeding their limits and bounds.
Further ISPs AND their employees can be subject to pressures from
all ends, legal and not legal. Because of this it makes sense
to exercise caution.



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T o m M i t c h e l l
Found me a new hat, now what?

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On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 09:10:27 +0500,
gilpel@altern.org wrote:

Not on your computer, when it reaches the router. The original idea was that
people would be discouraged from encrypting data before it got to the
router and that law enforcement could pick it up there. Strong encryption
would be encouraged between routers to protect the traffic from other
parties.

While things didn't quite happen that way (we got dsc1000s, which were
essentially carnivore with a more mundane name, watching traffic instead
of stuff built into the routers) and especially as machines are more powerful,
encryption is being done end to end for some things. However on the low
end, people now typically have routers on the gateway for their home
networks that are plently powerful enough to snoop on local traffic. I
haven't heard of any cases of law enforcement having special firmware on
residential routers to allow them to snoop traffic, but it's pretty doable.
I suspect in most cases if they want to monitor local traffic they are
probably going to want to install keyloggers anyway and if they think
watching traffic between remote sites is good enough they can just grab
stuff going through the ISP. So it's probably a small enough niche that it's
not something that is valuable enough for them to try to get standard on
home routers.

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On 10/09/2009 12:36 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:

If it's easy to do covertly, then what's to stop them?
If not your ISP, what about your phone company, if not
what about data-traffic routers, if not what about...
and keep on going - is it a labyrinth/maze that is well
hidden, globally? You might want to ask: Cui Bono?


think about, after all, blackbox operations are 'classified',
and way, way ahead of civilian technology. Or so I think.

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On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 11:34:59 -0700,
"Daniel B. Thurman" wrote:

Quote:

On 10/09/2009 12:36 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:

If you have residential cable or dsl from the local duopoly they
are quite likely to be messing with you. They may provide DNS with bogus
TTLs, send RST packets intended to break bitorrent connections, throttle
traffic based on deep packet inspection rather than say, just volume, screw
things up with hidden proxies that make unwarranted assumptions about your
traffic, returning bogus DNS records instead of NXDOMAIN, changing inflight
http responses to insert ads, tracking or helping others track what websites
you use for marketting purposes.

Uh huh, that and much, much more than we can dream or
think about, after all, blackbox operations are 'classified',
and way, way ahead of civilian technology. Or so I think.

The above descriptions were actual things ISPs have done. They don't do them at
the behest of government, they do them for money. Either they are trying to
skimp on infrastructure, sell ads or sell marketting data.

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On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Nifty Fedora Mitch
wrote:

Quote:

Another external input is the mail message that Thunderbird is replying to.
In general a graphical email tool will transparently pick up the character set
of the message you reply to.  Some HTML/XML/RichText messages can have multiple
character sets in a message that includes previous messages in this and that
language/ character set.   The most common reply hook is to "reply in kind".  If you
send me html mail I would assume that you are OK with HTML and if you reply to
a 'text' email then a reply in the same 'text' mode is apropos.

First, note that I post this from my gmail account as I can't access
my altern account: "connected to server" appears in the status bar,
but the login page doesn't load. Just another of the numerous problems
I encounter.

Quote:

Also mail transport agents are getting character set aware.

I was the original poster for this thread, it's, as far as I know, the
only message using this charset, and I never wrote the reply header I
have for this *one* message. I certainly hope mail transport agent
don't rewrite reply headers

One thing I thought might be of interest. It often takes 30-40 seconds
before the sent message is copied to the sent folder. Sometimes,
though rarely, a message saying ~ "Your message could not be copied to
the sent folder" appears.

Thanks for your answer!

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On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 3:04 AM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:

Quote:

On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 09:10:27 +0500,
 gilpel@altern.org wrote:

I took a look before writing my answer and the information I got is it's a
mean for people on the net or your ISP to take a look at the data on your
computer *before* it's encrypted.

Not on your computer, when it reaches the router.

First, note that I post this from my gmail account as I can't access
my altern account: "connected to server" appears in the status bar,
but the login page doesn't load. Just another of the numerous problems
I encounter.

I wasn't aware that routers could encrypt messages. Anyway, I doubt
it's the case of my old GNET BB0060 and I never encrypt.

In any case, contrary to what I envisioned, this technique couldn't
have modified data on my computer as has happened to me, even if it
had been implemented, and it apparently wasn't.

One thing I thought might be of interest. It often takes 30-40 seconds
before the sent message is copied to the sent folder. Sometimes,
though rarely, a message saying ~ "Your message could not be copied to
the sent folder" appears.

Thanks for your info on private doorbell!

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